Joe Klein, Time's political columnist and author of six books, said the war talk coming from Israel's leadership, in which the country's prime minister appeared to be pushing the United States toward military action was "absolutely outrageous and disgusting."
On Tuesday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu publicly criticized the United States for not doing more to thwart Iran from developing nuclear weapons.
"The world tells Israel 'Wait, there's still time'. And I say, 'Wait for what? Wait until when?'" Netanyahu said Tuesday, speaking in English.
"Those in the international community who refuse to put red lines before Iran don't have a moral right to place a red light before Israel," he added, addressing a news conference with Bulgaria's prime minister.
"I don’t think I’ve ever, in the 40 years I’ve been doing this, have heard of another example of an American ally trying to push us into war as blatantly and trying to influence an American election as blatantly as Bibi Netanyahu and the Likud party in Israel is doing right now," Klein said during Morning Joe Wednesday. "I think it’s absolutely outrageous and disgusting. It’s not a way that friends treat each other. It’s cynical and brazen."
While the United States and Israel continue to argue over what diplomatic steps are necessary prior to any military action, Klein called war with the country, "a fool’s errand." "It would be a ridiculous war," he said.
Klein suggested that U.S. sanctions against the country are hurting not only the people of Iran, but also its business class and the Revolutionary Guards.
"The Revolutionary Guards, the most powerful force in the country, control 30% to 40% of the economy and these sanctions are really biting them," he said. "Very soon they’re going to start hampering the Revolutionary Guards ability to buy weapons and to pay their members."
He also suggested that should Iran develop a nuclear weapon the policy already in place for nuclear armed countries, containment, could work.
Moreover, though, Klein, who has visited Iran, said the leadership "do not want to have their country destroyed by American weaponry or Israeli weaponry," and will try to avoid war.
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I completely agree. The current leader of Israel needs to understand that the American people do not take too kindly to his attempt to "handle" our government and country. Support of Israel's right to exist doesn't make us their puppet but it should make them our friend. A word to the wise Israel: stay the hell out of our elections or find yourself in a school yard fight without backup.
I completely disagree with Mr Klein When should Israel take action AFTER they nuke Jerusalem? Obama administration is even floating the idea of the world living with a nuclear Iran. The fools errand is listening to MR Kleins arguments on "containing a nuclear Iran" As Bugs Bunny would say "What a maroon."
What a joke. Are we supposed to let foreign leaders tell our generals what their supposed to do even when they decide it's not wise? And this based on moral grounds? I see Bob takes it a step further and bases it on advice from cartoon characters but that doesn't surprise me either given the IQ of the neo-cons.
I'm glad we have adults in the white house.
As usual, Joe is freaking clueless! It's nice that you guys support an otherwise unemployable "journalist".
Which Joe? Assuming Scarborough, I couldn't agree more...
I'm up with a bit of insomnia, and I see Mitt Romney is identified as smearing the President for "apologizing for American prinicpals," and somebody needs to be keelhauled for that one. And Scarborough doesn't recognize the President's characterization of Egypt as "neither ally nor foe" is some serious power politics.
Mitt Romney is the only one who has any balls in all of this. When is it ever too soon to stand up for America! I don't know what is in Joe's Starbucks cup, but it must be Kool-aid!
If you call "balls," lying to American people about their President and inflaming foreign people when they are already inflamed because of recent events then you are correct. However, that is not standing up for America. That is showing that he is not honest, he likes to insult the leader of the United States of America and he is foolish enough to cause a war between America and Middle Eastern countries. This is exactly the behavior exhibited by Bin Laden, Al Qaeda and Taliban leaders. Frankly I don't see a difference, other than people like you are rooting for him. Oh, I'm sorry were you rooting for Bin Laden too?
Joe is right... Netanyahu is a war monger. Just sell him some drones and let him do his own dirty work.
Yeah Antha - you live in a counmtry that is 9 miles wide and has bombs lobbed into its civilian cities on a daily basis killing and maiming an innocent population because of their religious beliefs.
What is wrong with American's that they could possibly side with governments that have Sharia law as their basis and killing JEWS as their primary goal?
I suggest that America would be fortunate to have a LEADER like Netanyahu instead of a wimp whose own goal is to apologize for America and do his best to debase our efforts across the globe.
DO you fully understand Sharia Law or just listen to the talking points? Are you truly familiar with the founding of this country and if you say religious freedom your are totally wrong, get familiar with the Treaty of Tripoli Article 11 which was ratified by Congress and you will get a surprise. The point is that all religions sometime or another during their history were considered violent only because of the people. There are extremist on all sides of eligions example is the Terry Jones and otheres. Whom are we to say what is correct or not? We say that 2 + 2 is four, however maybe the real answer is between 4.25 and 5.00. Just for discussion sake why do also assume that Israel is always right, do we truly believe that they always listened to the God of Abraham. Also remember they commit more espionage treats against us then anyother country. The point I am making is that they have their agenda and self interests as does other countries but it appears that we have become their self interest.
The statement that America sides with governments that have sharia law and whose number one goal is killing Jews is pure nonsense.
The statement that bombs are being lobbed into civilian cities daily is nonsense.
The statement that our leader is a wimp that apologizes for America is again nonsense.
What is amazing is that you can tie you own shoes or even manage to type on a computer. Try reading a history book, a magazine or listening to real news instead of believing trash like Fox or Limbaugh. Your ignorance and gullibility is truly amazing to behold.
@ sedwinmars: Well said.
@ sedwinmar & DLC-3313855: Well Said!
Anyone who advocates a war as the solution to protect peace is as stupid and nonsense as advocating rape to protect virginity!
When on earth history have men killed anyone only because of being a suspect? And killing that suspect at the expense of others not even himself!
It is SO SAD that majority of such people are so ignorant that they even forget the recent history when they call Iraq as the immedaite danger for WMDs and if US does not start a preemptive strike, it was going to be too late! They have already forgotten that those threats were all lies to get into war and there were no WMDs
Sometimes I feel there is no hope for humanity when humans are supposed to to be differentiated by their power of minds, but they have all shut the mind down and moving in a herd to extinction!
Watch Morning Joe? This along with a few other reasons (Mika primarily) is why I always end up changing channels.
Today we have Klein and Barnicle displaying why the American Jew will finally leave the Democrat Party.
Gutless, clueless, and nothing more than a shills and sycophants for Obama - they have little knowledge of the geopolitical crisis Obama has placed us in.
I wish there was a Morning show that was serious and NOT filled with left wing Obama sycophants that smugly think their liberal comments are shared.
Sorry, but I can't agree with anyone wanting to shed another drop of American Troops' blood in defense of anything other than the contiguous United States Of America. Israel's nuclear...they can handle this matter on their own. All of you who want the U.S.A. to get involved in another foreign war should put your children on the frontline first. We've had war seemingly forever...bring our troops home!
It's so sweet to see people like "Save the Gulf" joining the terrorists in the Middle East in attacking the President of the United States and our country because of this video.
I'm sure he attacked Bush when we were bombed on 9/11 and our Navy ship and embassy were attacked during the Bush administration too, right?
bravo, Joe Klein! it has been my impression for quite some time that Bibi Netanyahu barely has the respect of his own citizens, not to mention his questionable standing amongst American Jews, and should therefore keep his nose out of our domestic business and tend to his own political problems within his own electorate.
all the more reason to make sure the President is re-elected...if for no other reason than to keep a Romney/Netanyahu alliance at bay and forestall their ambition to start WWIII.
{the Republican party is dead. long live the Republican party.}
It's worth noting that Bibi's Likud party does not have the majority in the Knesset right now, nor are they particularly popular among the Israeli population. Everyone is scared of Iran, but there's a divide on whether the sanctions should continue or if airstrikes should start.
A lot of top Israelis are against the idea of war though, including the main opposition leader (and therefore the majority of the legislature), the heads of the IDF and Mossad (along with the former heads), and possibly even Ehud Barak.
Plus, Israel is isolated. We need friends, and acting out without approval from the US and Europe is foolish beyond all reason. As it stands, the only reason we have a working economy and military is because of foreign support, and the US is also the only reason we aren't surrounded by enemies -- the Arab states and Turkey are not belligerent and don't attack Israel (verbally or physically) despite hating our politics.
As a long-term US resident, I have to say I tend to side with the current Obama/DoD/NATO/EU/CIA/military position. Israel has no right to interfere in American elections and no right to demand another country send its young men to fight and die. We should be an example for the world to see, so that they come to our aid out of choice.
Also, there is no way Mitt Romney will do anything differently from Obama. No matter who the president is, they still have to ask long-term top diplomats, intelligence officers, and military officials for advice. None of those people in the US are pro-war against Iran.
What I found most offensive about Klein was his desire to describe in amazing detail his sensitivity to the need of the Iranian people to feel safe from outside attack, referencing the loss of one million Iranians in the Iran-Iraq war. Not once did he take the time to apply the same sensitivity to the Israeli people who lived for the last 64 years under a constant threat of annihilation and nearly 70 years after 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis. It is not lost on most that Klein's anti-Israeli stance is part of his regular speech. If anyone should stand with vigilance, it is the Israeli populace. I find it hard to believe that any other country under such direct threat (do we remember the Cuban Missile Crisis) would stand by and wait to be threatened with a nuclear attack. Shame on Joe Klein and his self-loathing.
No one has stopped supporting Israel. In fact Israel has said over and over Obama has been an exceptional supporter of Israel.
I find it offensive that you feel sensitivity for the Jews who died in WWII but none for the Iranians who died in the Iran-Iraq war. Human life is human life and we are talking about millions of people.
Somehow you believe that the Israelis are innocent of violence. Peace can only be achieved when both sides admit that they are both guilty of violence in the past and then they agree to put that past behind them and move forward towards peace. If they don't then there will always be the risk of war and nuclear annihilation.
Hatred and violence only continues when people refuse to give up their past differences, forgive each other and heal for the future of their society. This is the sign of maturity. Unfortunately, their has been a failure of leadership in that region for decades.
sedwinmars, I truly wish everyone in this broken world thought like you!
As long as people in this world believe they are the "chosen ones" (not just Jews, or Christians or Muslims as they all think like that!) and only the lives of them matters and those being of a different race or religion etc, this bloodshed never ends.... and it all comes from human stupidity not to realize the one who plant the seeds of war and violence are the ones who are benefiting from it financially at the expense of the young men and women blood!
Mr. Klein's comments are perfect for MSNBC. Joe Klein's segment was preposterous and ludicrous and I agree, self-loathing.As our embassies are being attacked all over the Middle East, as our President sits back and states that we're creating "democracies", Israel is the only democracy and ally that we have and should be protected vigorously.
Our country is crumbling, the middle class is disappearing, our politics have weakened us around the world and the defense of our President continues.
Morning Joe was a place I could go to where I could reasonably expect good discussions on very serious topics. It has now toppled into an info commercial for the liberals. Shame!
Ou
Here's the big difference between Republicans and Democrats.
When we were attacked on 9/11, when our Navy was attacked and our embassy came under attack during the Bush administration we came together and not a single Democrat blamed the Bush Administration in any way.
However, when some right wing idiots send movies insulting Muhammad to the middle east to inflame tensions and cause attacks on our embassy under a Democrat the Republicans join in with the terrorists in attacking our President.
Republicans don't deserve to hold office. Vote them all out. They aren't adult enough to lead this nation in any capacity what-so-ever.
This is not about Republicans and Democrats. Idology can cause people to lose common sense. Our country is faltering, we have slipped to 7th in the world's economy, we are weak in the view of the world. In the UN Russia and China vetoed our proposals because they no longer respect us or fear us. Our Middle East policies of apology and sending money to create democracies ...well you can see today the wondrous effects of that. We have over 8% unemployment and we have a President whose policies are not working. Criticism is a healthy thing; propoganda is not. We have a right to differ and have differing points of view. That is what our country is based on.
People do foolish things, terrorists and extremists take advantage. That is the world we live in today. The goal of the President is to make things safer, not perpetuate a fixed ideology. Sorry but, in my opinion, he is failing the American people.
I'm so glad you no longer have faith in America. Our country is not faltering. I don't know who you've been talking to but I know of no other country in the world that views us as weak. As far as a Middle East policy of apology, that is a myth and has been proven just another right wing Mitt Romney-Karl Rove lie. Check out the fact checking organizations they gave Karl Roves book on the subject four Pinocchios,or in other words a complete and total lie.
I also love your right wing complaint regarding 8% unemployment. Thanks to the POTUS we have the lowest unemployment of all the countries that experienced the economic crash. The European countries all decided to go with Republican-Ryan type austerity plans and they have gone into double dip recessions with unemployment rates as high as 25%. As far as Obama's policies failing how do you figure that when the Republicans in Congress have now filibustered his jobs bill 20 times in a row? It's hard for a plan to work or fail when the Congress hasn't passed it?
Why have the Republicans refused to pass the jobs bill 20 times now? Isn't that what they promised they would do when they were elected in 2010? I guess you right wingers just enjoyed being lied to. And why are the corporations not investing? Because they are unsure of what is coming out of Washington. Because nothing can get done. That is solely because the Republicans have refused to pass the jobs bill and refused to raise any taxes at all under any circumstances even when they get 10 dollars in cuts for 1 dollar in tax raises.
You do not want to use facts in your arguments. You do not want to take responsibility for your parties failures. You want to blame the POTUS for your parties refusal to pass jobs bills and their failure to pass the Presidents economic plans.
Stop blaming the President for your parties complete and total lack of leadership and grow up. This is not a game this is the United States of America. Hate our enemies if you have to hate someone to get through the day. Stop hating your fellow American's and the leader of our nation and the Commander of our armed forces.
There has not been an apology sent to the Middle East Countries, if you would read President Obama's Cairo speech you will read that he did not apologize. This has been nothing but an Neo-Con talking point that hs long been debunked.
Dr Francine what were you saying, you did not bring anything to the table. There has not been an apology sent to the Middle East Contries. Your post appears to be nothing but a Republican talking point that is full of conjectures. Read the speech given by President Obama while in Cairo 2009
Of course. The Neo-Con hypocrisy with regard to "respect" for the office of the Presidency is legendary. They had zero respect for Clinton when he was in office and they have zero respect for Obama. However, they demanded respect for Bush for the first five years he was in office getting many famous and hard working Americans fired and black-balled from their jobs for simply speaking the truth or expressing opinions that weren't even close to the trash the right wing spews. Im talking about Americans like Dan Rather, the Dixie Chicks, and Michael Moore just to name a few.
The falsehoods and hypocrisy on the right are proof of their adolescent attitudes and behavior. They are not qualified to hold office or run this country.
Your pathetic screed is also adolescent, but typical of the elitist left...crowd that has Zero "respect" for PRESIDENT Reagan or the Bush PRESIDENTS...only effete condescension. I gather that you must support the current lead from behind President Obama AKA Barak Narcissus.
Lead from behind? You must be referring to when he got Bin laden. You prefer the Bush policy of lead from the front and just giving up on getting Bin Laden right?
Give me a break. You are impervious to fact and just make up lies about the President of the United States of America. 94949 is that your Taliban serial number?
Well-said, Sed.
It would be nice if they would answer, honestly, just one of the questions you posed--just one!
sewinmars... I always like reading your posts.
This idea that Israel is always beyond reproach is getting old. Have they been victimized? Yes, but they have also given as much as they've gotten, and in some cases, more. I resent the fact that any foreign leader feels entitled enough to demand military action from us, for any reason. And we have Americans in this country siding with a foreign leader instead of our own President. How sad is that?!
Thank you for your kind words.
romney
+ netanyahu
____________
= WWIII
I do not understand why anyone would bother with anything Klein says or writes. He is a typically nasty, bitter leftwing ideologue who has an incredibly over inflated opinion of himself...probably why is a Time contributor...like publisher like writer.
TIME, a left wing publication? Ha Ha Ha? How do you right wingers just believe you can make things up off the top of your heads and get away with it? You do realize you are typing this out on a computer right? With one click everyone can go to "Google" search and look up the history of TIMES editors and CEO's and see that they are as far right as far right executives can go!
Seriously, you guys on the right just love to be lied to and love to lie to others. You are like children who just can't live in the real world and would rather have someone tell you a fairy tale.
It's time for adults to take our government back and start dealing with the problems we have in an adult fashion. Vote a straight Democrat ticket. It's the only way to get anything realistic and significant done in so far as solving this nations problems go.
Benjamin Netanyahu is a brilliant politician and a powerful Prime Minister for Israel. He has years of experience serving at different ministerial posts and as a Captain in the Israeli Army Who would be the best choice for Israel; for the US?
Facts are strange things.Yes, they can be manipulated but just look at kids out of college not finding jobs, houses in foreclosure, double income families hardly making it, gas prices spiraling out of control, middle income people earning less. Try to dispute your political agendas and your assumptions that I am some far right extremist.
I worked raising money for Secretary of State Hilary Clinton. I am NOT a registered Republican. I am a person who thinks for herself and disregards the self-inflated, well paid commentators who know which side of their bread is buttered.
I don't want a country that if Mr. Corey Booker makes a statement that he believes in he is yanked back by the White House. That is frightening. Power corrupts! As far as your other statements, yes President Obama went to the Middle East and sacrificed our strength in bending over backwards for countries, as demonstrated a year later, believe women are second rate citizens with little to no rights, who believe in not educating their people and not providing safe environments for their people and encourage rioting. Look at what happened in Iran's uprising. Where is the Arab spring?
Facts are strange things! But if you open your eyes, you can see for yourself! And then judge for yourself. I am only one citizen who, thank goodness, lives in a world where I can express myself.
Facts are strange things. It's funny how the Republicans not only refuse to use them but continue to distort them. This isn't my opinion even the most diehard Republican organizations like Fox have remarked how "factually incorrect" Paul Ryan and Mittens have been.
Additionally, people like you will always throw gas prices into these arguments knowing full well that the President and the government have absolutely nothing to do with gas prices. Those prices always go up during this time of the year because O&G companies are switching from the summer grade to the winter grades of gas. This coupled with the fact that they shut down all of the rigs in the gulf for a week or so because of hurricane Isaac are the reason gas prices are momentarily high again.
You still refuse to acknowledge that this President has tried to institute his economic policy and jobs programs but the Republicans have refused to let him for years now. That has stalled our recovery (which has been great compared to the rest of the world), and has caused a lack of confidence in the business community.
The Democrats never undermined the Republicans when they were in control in this way because they didn't want to undermine our economy and American jobs.
I am judging for myself. The Republicans have actively tried to sabotage this recovery, business success and American job creation for political reasons. Those are the facts my friends. You might argue, they didn't mean it but when they do it 20 times over a period of two years and have done even more over three and half years there is no doubt here who is to blame.
Mr. Netanyahu talks about doing something about Iran's nuclear program. Let's take a look at what a war with Iran might be like. It certainly would be regional, with oil prices pushing $200 per barrel. We also face the prospects of Vietnam War casualties on land and Okinawa type casualties at sea along with possible 9-11 terrorist attacks at home. This war could also involve chemical weapons launched by ballistic missiles that could escalate to a nuclear conflict with Israel and Iran or the U.S. and Iran. Here is how awful all of this would be described in detail below. Nothing here is hyped or exaggerated this is just a sober analysis from a 20 year retired military veteran. You always need to think worse case scenarios with wars because wars have a life all their own that planners and thinkers don't like talking about much to the public.
We need to understand a few things about any conflict with Iran. Let's take a look at the Time Almanac 2012, pp. 308-309.The first is that Iran is a huge country with a population of 73.8 million people with a geographic area 628,000 square miles which makes Iran slightly larger than the state of Alaska at 590,000 square miles. Iran has about 10% arable land. The geography has most of the land being high mountainous plateau above 4,000 feet with a large interior desert with about 10% of the land forested. Iran has a large military of 523,000 soldiers in all the services. The major cities are Teheran with nearly 8 million people, Mashhad 2.4 million people, Esfahan 1.6 million, Tabriz 1.4 million, Karaj 1.3 million. Iran's per capita income income is $12,800 with a GDP of $842 billion in 2008 according to the NY Times Almanac 2010, pp 600-601. Major resources are oil, natural gas, coal, chromium, with major industries petroleum, petrochemicals, textiles. Major exports are petroleum, carpets, fruits, nuts, and hides. About 25% of the labor force is in agriculture, 31% in industry, 45% services, with a 12.5 unemployment in 2008 according to the NY Times Almanac. Iran has many different people 51% are Persian who speak Farsi, and their are various mixtures of Kurds, Azerbaijani, and other groups. Most 98% are Muslims with Shias 86% and Sunnis 10% other 2%.
Now let's breakdown Iran's military power briefly at those 545,000 active duty military forces. Iran's reserve are 1.8 million reservists. I got this information from the Federation of American Scientists Iran ground forces document section; "...//www.fas.org/man/eprint/dod_iran_2010.pdf"
Iran has a military budget of about $9.1 billion dollars. Iran has at least 1800-2000 Main Battle tanks mostly older Russian and Chinese tanks that have been heavily modernized, an equal number of armored vehicles, along with about 2300-2800 pieces of heavy artillery, almost one thousand multiple rocket launchers, and over 5,000 mortars. Iran's ground forces also are equipped with ample supplies of man portable antitank weapons and man portable antiaircraft missiles such as the Russian SA-7 and other modernized versions of the SA-7. There are also 1100 plus air defense artillery systems.
Iran's has about 3 or 4 Kilo class or midget submarines with more acquisition of midget submarines believed to be in procurement. Iran has four corvettes and up to 80 smaller patrol and missile boats. The Iranian Revolutionary Guards have hundreds of small high speed patrol boats many of which are believed to be built as suicide boats with one ton explosive warheads that would ram U.S. Navy ships. Iran's navy also has over one hundred anti-ship cruise missile launchers with at least one thousand or more Chinese anti-ship cruise missiles that can destroy or sink supertankers, or warships. Iran also has many thousands of modern sea mines that it can laid to block the Strait of Hormuz where about 20% of the world's oil goes travels everyday.
Iran's air force has about 338 jet fighters mostly old F-14 and F-4's. Iran is also building some of its own fighters. There also are limited numbers of helicopters. Iran's air defense forces are a separate service with about 12,000 soldiers. The Iranians chose a point defense system around nuclear and industrial targets. The Iranians are known to have modern Russian Surface to Air SA-20's called the TOR system with modern radars. Iran concentrates its 1100 antiaircraft artillery systems around point targets. The SAM systems are various older European and Russian systems. Teheran has spent much money improving its radar and modern SAM systems. Also Teheran has dug its important targets deep underground in concrete reinforced bunkers and caves dug into mountain rock wherever possible.
More important are the various types of short ranged ballistic missiles that Iran has deployed. Iran is also manufacturing its own short ranged ballistic missiles. Iran has modernized its ballistic missile force with increasing numbers of solid fuel types that are quick to launch and much harder to destroy. Iran is also believed to have GPS guided warheads on at least a portion of its ballistic missile force. Iran is also known to have more than one thousand ballistic missiles with hundreds added annually. All of the Persian Gulf oil infrastructure such as ports, refineries, terminal infrastructure, pipeline facilities are all within range of Iran's ballistic missiles. The point here is that Iran has ample firepower to disrupt and obliterate the oil supplies in the Persian Gulf. Iran also is known to have longer range ballistic missiles that can easily hit Israel and beyond with its Shahab III intermediate ranged ballistic missiles that are believed to number around couple hundred. Iran also is known to produce around 1,000 tons annually of chemical weapons such as cyanide, phosgene, and mustard gas. Nerve gases are also believed to be developed and manufactured on a more limited bases. Iran can put chemical warheads on its ballistic missiles, artillery rockets and shells, and bombs.
"...//www.fas.org/man/eprint/dod_iran_2010.pdf"
"...//www.fas.org/man/eprint/dod-iran.pdf"
This formidable defense is not the entire picture either. Iran has formidable special forces and terrorist training centers. Large numbers of Iranian men have been trained in the military on explosives, guerrilla warfare, and terrorist tactics. Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guards Force has a Quds force known as a terrorist training force with ties to Hezbullah in Lebanon, Shia groups in Iraq, the Taliban in Afghanistan, and ties with Hamas and other Palestinian fighter groups. Iran has long established training, supply, and other logistical support for terrorist groups throughout the Middle East. Iran has been a prolific builder of armor piercing bombs that require a high degree of technical skill. Iran also has a large paramilitary force that could well number into a million or more fighters. While this paramilitary force is not easily deployed beyond Iran's borders this paramilitary force would be a formidable urban guerrilla fighting force that could lay vast numbers of roadside bombs, ambushes, and laying of mines or booby traps for any occupying force. These paramilitary forces could turn Iran's urban centers into prolonged urban guerrilla and terrorist battlefields that could turn any occupation of Iran into an insurgency war that could last years or decades with very serious casualties for any would be occupier.
This asymmetrical urban terrorist threat would be Iran's ace in the hole making any occupation of the country virtually impossible unless the occupier wanted to deploy a million man Army plus and keep that force in place for years with large casualties. Iran's five million plus cities would be the perfect asymmetrical environment turning any occupation into a prolong bloodbath of relentless grinding attrition of ambushes, roadside bombings, endless sniping, booby trapped and mined buildings, and suicide terrorist attacks. Occupying a huge country with large urban centers with 73 million angry people could field a terrorist and urban guerrilla force almost indefinitely. How an occupier would defeat such a formidable guerrilla force using terrorist tactics and melting back into the population centers is something that should give any person with military knowledge pause.
So let's briefly look at what a war with Iran would look like so we all can get an idea of what we are talking about:
1. Iran would probably launch most of its ballistic missiles if attacked seriously by Israel, at Persian Gulf oil targets knocking out much of the Middle Easts oil production. We should expect permanent oil prices at $200 per barrel or higher. Oil shipping insurance would become unaffordable for most countries once oil tankers started getting sunk.
2. The Strait of Hormuz could be shut down quickly by Iranian mines, submarines, cruise missiles and suicide boat attacks. Also all shipping in the Persian Gulf would come under range of Iranian antiship cruise missiles.
3. Terrorist groups across the Middle East region would attack oil infrastructure and other target such as American or allied bases. This would knockout much of the oil sent out of the Middle East by pipelines that are easily sabotaged. Terrorist attacks across the whole Middle East would become widespread in all countries in the regional allied to the U.S. or the West. These terrorist attacks could last for months or even years because Iran has a vast network and history of training and supplying terrorists across the Middle East. Terrorist attacks on Europe and in North America would also be a real possibility.
4. Israel would come under heavy rocket barrage from Hezbollah and possibly Hamas from several different directions. Economic disruption in Israel would result from these rocket attacks that would overwhelm Israel missile defenses by simply targeting them. Iranian medium ranged missiles with chemical warheads could hit Tel Aviv disrupting commerce and the economy even more has crews frantically try to clean poisonous chemicals from buildings, streets, etc. This would be a hugely time and resource intensive process.
5. Probably American ships would be targeted with suicide boat attacks, cruise missile attacks, and mines to contend with. While the Navy trains for this type of warfare the danger is real and determined attacks could knock out or sink several U.S. Navy ships. Suicide and missile attacks are hard to stop when carried out by angry determined attackers filled with religious zeal. We should look at WW II type Okinawa level casualties because this is highly probable for the Navy.
6. A land war with Iran would be almost unthinkable. We could beat them conventionally but the insurgency/urban warfare phase could last for many years. We do not have enough It would take the U.S. Army and all the ground units of the National Guard and Reserves would have to be called up to occupy Iran. We literally would have to have one million soldiers in Iran to try and occupy it. Casualties to terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, roadside bombs would make occupying Iran's urban areas an unmitigated disaster for the U.S. that could cause us to suffer Vietnam war scale casualties. We are looking at 100,000 casualties plus along with years of insurgency and terrorist attacks in Iran and across the Middle East.
There is not going to be a one or two day bombing campaign against Iran and a nice victory parade the next week. Iran is a huge country with vast resources. Its doubtful that the U.S. would want to use nuclear weapons but if Iran uses chemical weapons the U.S. might be forced into using them. This would be horrible for our standing in the world and relations with Russia, China, and other countries would just go into another hostile Cold War. So when right wingers and neocons say "we have to do something" about Iran's nuclear program ask them how much do you want to sacrifice and suffer? If they want to suffer 100,000 casualties, have prolonged war costing several trillion dollars, and see permanent $200 per barrel of oil? We even need to face the probability of another 9-11 attack right at home sponsored by Iran. Is doing something about Iran's nuclear program worth these types of costs? We need to keep our heads and follow President Obama's policies of diplomacy, military containment, and economic sanctions because the President's plan for Iran is the only feasible game in town.
I ain't buyin' it.
- Storm, Covington
Storm: The reason no one messes with Iran is that they are a very powerful country. If the Iranians used asymmetrical tactics: ballistic missiles, urban guerrilla warfare tactics, regional terrorism, cruise missile and mining attacks on Persian Gulf oil tanker traffic, and other types of terror tactics such as suicide bombings, they could inflict enormous damage very quickly in the Persian Gulf region. Oil would quickly go to $200 per barrel or perhaps even higher. $10 per gallon of fuel would send America's economy into another Great Depression II. Say whatever you want this is the reason no American President or admiral or general on the Joint Chiefs of Staff want to attack Iran. Iran can absorb the bombing raids damage, reconstitute its nuclear program, and basically destroy the oil dependent economy. Iran would win this scenario and America would lose because 20% of the world's oil goes through the Straits of Hormuz. If this gets interrupted or cut off the U.S. economy will wither away under another Great Depression caused by $200 per barrel oil. These are the facts, Iran has America over a barrel both literally and figuratively. Let's solve this nuclear dispute with Iran by containment, sanctions, and diplomacy through the United Nations and our NATO allies. We can do this because its the only option available to us. To militarily attack Iran is to commit national economic suicide for the U.S. period.
This article predicts $150 per barrel oil if Israel attacks Iran:
http: //www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/oil-prices-could-hit-150-a-barrel-if-israel-attacks-iran/article549481/
This article from Haartez, says oil prices will soar if Israel attacks Iran:
http: //www.haaretz.com/business/iran-attack-would-drive-up-gasoline-and-electricity-prices-1.458064
An Indian energy expert predicts $200 per barrel oil if Israel strikes Iran:
http: //www.presstv.ir/detail/229463.html
Checkout this article in Barrons where George Friedman is quoted saying that oil could increase to $300 per barrel if Israel attacks Iran. Friedman predicts a long and bloody struggle with Iran that has built up huge conventional military forces and the largest military in the region since the 1980's Iran-Iraq war. Notice the Friedman talks about suicide boat tactics, ballistic missile attacks, seq mining and terrorism all part of the asymmetrical threat posed by Iran:
"But this time around, Friedman thinks that Iran might enjoy more success despite the presence of the U.S. Fifth Fleet in the area and other international naval forces that could be called on. According to Friedman, Iran has conducted naval exercises in the past two months featuring its conventional missile-equipped naval force and flotilla of Republican Guard speedboats that would likely swarm major tankers and opposition naval ships in suicide missions. Iran also has shore-to-ship missile batteries that could exact considerable damage on ships in the Persian Gulf, at least until U.S. air power successfully suppressed them. He would also expect Iran to engage in heavy mining of the strait and also key sea channels in the gulf."
http: //online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424052748703518604577213163331222328.html
Take your pick of $200 per barrel oil, $150 per barrel oil, or even $300 per barrel oil, any war with Iran would be long, hard, with thousands of casualties and a Great Depression II on the home front for the U.S. This is why President Obama is sticking with sanctions, diplomacy, and shunning PM Netanyahu's calls to attack Iran. It is national suicide for America to attack Iran.
Of course you're right. Mitt want's to not only attack Iran without paying for it like Bush but he also wants to lower taxes on the rich again by 4 to 5 times more than Bush did.
This guy is insane. These guys just keep trying the same old failed policies over and over even more so! They never learn!
I love Morning Joe but seriously having Jeb Bush comment on teachers' jobs. I dare Jeb to walk into a Chicago Public School classroom and teacher for one year! If MoJo is going to discuss the teacher/compensation/assessment debate and have a balanced debate, the producers need to get a teacher who teaches in an inner city school to sit at the table.
I regret to inform you that I have just about stopped watching your program. Your continual efforts to be "wise", translated as pandering to the left, is annoying. Your continual failure to have Republicans as panelists on a regular basis, let alone conservative Republicans, is annoying. Many of your guests' spin on the news is ill-informed and biased and you let them get away with it. Mika's attitude and never-ending eye-rolling or exasperated pose is tiresome. Why it is deemed wise to have both co-hosts away on leave or vacation at the same time is a puzzlement. (Sometimes even Willie is away at the same time-on occasion leaving "hosting" duties to that well known plagiarist and fraud Barnicle-a guarantee that the remote control will be utilized quickly.) Sorry, but your efforts to pander so that you can attend Washington soirees is too much. Your change is so obvious that you would not re-elected to your old seat if you had the gumption to try it. Goodbye.
Ha Ha Ha! "Pandering to the left?" What a joke. Only watchers of Fox and listeners of Limbaugh would think Joe panders to the left. Ha Ha Ha!
Go back to Fox if you can only watch extreme, fundamentalist, right wing, propaganda and plain, old, partisan, right wing, journalism is too liberal for you. Ha Ha Ha! What a joke!
Rex in Minnesota, Great post, You did forget 1 main item though. For America to fight Iran effectively. We will have to re-instate the draft. NO way America modern military today could take on Iran. So we will have to start drafting everyone from 18 to 35 national guard up to 44. The sickest part of that scenario is that the people ( politicians) that start this war. Their own children will be excused from the Iran war. Also it is a war already starting out without a goal. Just to attack Iran to stop their nuclear power at the cost of million upon millions of lives? A bomb if they do get and ever use, will wipe them off the face of the earth for all time. China, Russia, and America will all launch their own nukes at Iran by themselves. Why spend millions upon millions lives, to prevent an Hypothetical scenario? A scenario that will include the total distruction of Iran itself. Iran is a crazy nation, Everyone in the world can agree with that. Iran is not a suicidal nation. They want to thrive as a super power. Not a foot note in the History books.
You're both crazy. Israel has the second most sophisticated, military in the world. Why do we give them billions of dollars in funds and weapons every year?
If you guys want to fight and die in a nuclear war and you guys want to spend trillions of dollars in an unpaid for war while cutting taxes another 20% on the rich then you're insane.
Seriously, we just fought two wars against pathetic enemies over there that were unpaid for while cutting taxes and what happened. You want to fight an war that would be ten times bigger? You have great ideas but the Republicans will not pay for it and have only proposed to cut taxes more on the rich.
They only want to continue the same failed policies over and over again and again only more so. Insanity. Nuclear war is insanity. Fighting Israeli's wars for them when they have the capacity to do it themselves (lord knows we've given trillions in weapons and treasure). They've had no problem attacking Palestine, Egypt, Lebanon and others. Let's face it Iran is getting nukes because they are afraid Israel will nuke them. We've lost too many men and too much money fighting their wars for them. Bush/Cheney promised us oil forever and gas prices of 10 cents a gallon after the last two wars and so far China is the only country that has gotton any oil out of those wars and they didn't even fight there.
Not sure if Gilwillchil's response is parody or not.
Netanyahu is just another middle eastern, American-hater. Let him go to war if that is what he wants. Let him shed his countymen's blood and stop trying to get Americans killed.
Israel is not a country; as long as the palestinians do not have a country the Jury is stilll out.
thousands of american live were lost fighting israel,s wars; America never lost lives for peace for the Arabs and Jews.
...... very very true ....... please help to stop another war
Why do we allow Bibi and jews run this country toward destruction and another war that would kill Iranians and Americans and Israel will get what she wants and no casualties? WAR is NOT good. STOP Bibi Netanyaho and those zealous warmongers here in the USA and in Israel. DO NOT elect Romney who is Netanyaho's ass kisser and will take us to war because he will want what jews want. Long Live the USA, Iran and brave Iranian people.