The response on MSNBC to Thursday's feisty VP debate was very different from the anguished one that followed last week’s sleepier presidential one.
It was a “fast moving, intensely combative debate,” said Rachel Maddow. “An intensely kinetic night … it could not have been a starker contrast from last week.”
Chris Matthews, who outlined a checklist for Vice President Joe Biden prior to the debate, had his own version of score-keeping: He said Biden won on the three big issues of taxes, Medicare, and abortion, while Ryan only won on his Libya answer. “On the issues that matter to people, [it was] a clear victory for Joe Biden,” Matthews said. “He did what he had to do.”
“He was detailed, he was passionate,” agreed Ed Schultz.
Maddow cited one paarticular exchange, when Biden noted that despite his criticism of the stimulus, Ryan had actually asked the administration for stimulus money for his district, calling it brutal," to general agreement.
"The place where he really did do damage on domestic policy was Medicare,” added Chris Hayes, the host of MSNBC's Up with Chris. Biden repeatedly addressed the camera directly to ask “who do you trust?” on the issue, contrasting himself and Ryan’s privatization plan.
Though most panelists called it for Biden, Lawrence O’Donnell and Republican strategist Steve Schmidt were less sure.
“I think both sides are going to have a real fight in this room tonight about who did better,” said O’Donnell, host of The Last Word, adding that he's “not sure what ended up getting delivered” to swing or low-information voters. Schmidt said Republicans would watch the “fiery debate” and likely say that Ryan won, while Democrats would be “fired up by Joe Biden’s performance.”
One area where the panel almost unanimously credited Ryan was his lack of blatant policy flip-flopping—in contrast to his running-mate last week. “Ryan held his right-wing position, he did not do the chameleon thing that Romney did,” said the Rev. Al Sharpton.
Still, Ryan fumbled on some issues, particularly one big focus of the debate: “Paul Ryan embarrassed himself on Afghanistan tonight like no other issue,” Maddow said. “He doesn’t understand it well enough. I find it terrifying … the Romney-Ryan ticket is not credible on the issue of war.”
Even Schmidt conceded that Ryan’s answers in this arena were weak. “He got lost in the answer on Afghanistan, I don’t disagree with that at all,” he said.
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One proud senior Thanks Joe for looking out for us 47%.
Biden had polish and accuracy as well as believability on his side throughout the night. Ryan had memorized talking points and evasive verbage.
we , me, us, do not want any parts of paul ryan, just to think of him walking down the White House halls makes me and every body i know sick, he is a down low skin head.
thank you vp joe, you did wonderful...keep smiling, we're proud of you!
Joe Biden did well tonight giving good answers and not letting Ryan off the hook for his radical views on Medicare and the huge tax cuts for the rich. Respect for women seems to also be pretty low for Romney/Ryan. A new study out of St Louis by a group of doctors showed that birth control under the Affordable Care Act will reduce unwanted pregnancies by nearly 70%. I think that this will help calm fears in the Democratic camp about the last debate. Democrats still need to work hard and focus on fundamentals. Obama still looks good in Ohio and that is the state that matters. I think the Republicans have peaked despite the polls tightening. It will be a continuous struggle for them from now until Romney's concession speech on November 6th.
A very spirited debate. Joe Biden got it done..
I watched 45-50 minits good for Biden and Democrats.
MSNBC would be the first to love Joe Biden's smirks, arrogance, immaturity, rudeness and inability to lay out any plans for the next 4 years. In addition to only being able to call republicans liars, Joe upped the ante to include mocking and making fun of Ryan instead of competing with Ryan on the policy. I admire Ryan for continuing in a straight forward, methodical, respectful, professional manner in the face of such antics. This was a Gore sighing performance times 10. As usual, Democrats characterize rudeness and arrogance as a winning character trait.
And Romney was polite last week?? I LOVE how Republicans can characterize Romney's performance as "Dynamic," but Biden is "Arrogant." Last week, your man at the top of the ticket was smug, interrupted constantly, ignored the moderator and was praised by his party. Hate to tell you - last night was OWNED by Biden. Paul Ryan is my age and he looked like a high school student being schooled by a college professor.
Joe Biden came across as being extremely defensive, he agreed that the unemployment numbers in his hometown rose since President Obama's election. Hey if the Government is giving out stimulus money it might as well be given to each state I would have tried to get my state some too. As for his supposed ROMAN CATHOLIC views about abortion, he needs to read the bible more and remember thecommandment that says "Thou shall Not Kill" My family is sruggling day to day to just make it. We can barely afford groceries to feed our 3 boys, gasoline costs are eating up our grocery money, our IRA's are earning .005. Things haven't gotten better for my family the last 4 years. They have gotten worse!!
Word choice aside, your statements are inconsistent, contradictory, counter factual, missing organization and logical progression. A world based on adherence to 613 commandments, just will not work. The world of the bible times, never bothered to improve on the infant mortality, sanitation, and antibiotics, consider the cruely of having the majority of all children not survive to adult hood, or culling the disabled in ancient time,
I suggest that you focus on the Economy, identifying factors that are relevant, and make the most sense. This will be difficult since there are few verifiable facts about the economy that are commonly discussed. The 'Economy' (Energy -> Economy -> Demand -> Investment -> Production -> Jobs -> Profit) is an engine, that must start, must run and must be maintained, the above (list) is riddled with neglect, rust, un-oiled, ignored and inhibited by wasteful distractions.
Food for Thought - Has anyone besides me noticed that when Pres. Obama and VP Biden speak before a majority black audience they change the way they talk? It's a bit of a drawl along with double negatives and improper use of the "be" verb. Do they think this is the only way that this audience can understand them? I constantly see so many examples of how Democratic pols talk to their constituents as if they are uneducated street people. And I know they are not. That's how Biden's behavior struck me last night. If I needed more disrespect, smirks, laughing in your face I could have just watched the debate with a bunch of middle-schoolers. Is that what Biden thought of his audience last night?
If Obama claims to be the President for all the people why do you rarely see someone over the age of 30 at his campaign speaches? He had an event a couple of days ago where you would be hard pressed to find a 22 year old. Every time I hear him mention seniors I think to myself, hows he gonna eff me now.
No "clear" winners here Mathews. At best I'll give Biden a slight edge only because he avoided any catastrophic gaffs. Mathews has gone so far to the left that you have to go full circle to the right to find him.
Maybe VP Biden will give Pres. Obama some debating lessons. Biden was my knight in shinning armour in the debate!
I watch the debate and after debate remarks on MSNBC. More and more I look at MSNBC as a government station. Rachel was there with the foot soldiers and one token republican. Before the debate, Rachel was absolutely giddy. Thank God Biden didn't wipe up the floor with Ryan - Rachel would have been in such ecstasy that she might not have been able to carry on after the debate.
Chris Matthews was in attack mode as were all the others. At the next debate I will watch Fox to see if they are worse than what I saw last night.
I thought the debate moderator was great. Biden was great. Ryan gave him a run for his money.
I did not hear Paul Ryan say that if Romney became President their first order of business was to overturn Roe v Wade. I guess Chris heard it though.
1) Fox is …, the challenge is to deny it?
2) Why is it also impossible to look beyond the candidates as individuals?
Candidates are seen through filters, viewed through the filter of the polished media, then by their packaging of their on stage, then the fog of their positions. Seeing the candidate through a set of filters; deciding in their favor, why is that we cannot identify the path through congress by which the legislation can be drafted toward implementing the policy. Pick your own analogy; select the best dancing horse you will be feeding horse before the sparrow gets a share. The 19th century stockman selects a horse; carriage, ridding, or draft, for the job to be done, against the cost of feeding it, the investment in the harnessing equipment, how much load can be pulled, for how long. Since the economy is the load to be pulled, look from the cart forward, and see the right horse and not just the end that don’t eat the oats.
3) Why is it also impossible to look beyond the media personalities, as individuals?
Selecting candidate like a livestock show, but media personalities are like the fashion show to select waiters for dining tables. There's the menu, the place setting, the presentation, but if you came hungry you will want the result delivered by the chief. Like the livestock show and the dinner presentation, the candidate gets lost in the crowd, the ribbons awarded and the certificates handed out, while the candidate get put in the stable form the next event.
4) The hazard is that we select the petty candidate, without regard to ability to pull the load, be it the un-ploughed field or the harvest at seasons end.
Just in case you hadn't noticed, public broadcast (network) media resource regulation is a thing of the past, the cable media is freed to compete for biased audiences and advertisers want to sell product and to influence audiences, in two for one bargain. Even NBCnews started to feel the pressure from FOX's obstinate bias toward dumbing down the republic, but being careful and through to make better product obviously costs more than making up vague and unverifiable news disguised as propaganda. This is a 'social experiment', funded entirely, by advertisers, who sprinkle their products, with glitz, and anything that sells, and because of new found mediums, want to see if they get better results from making good products, or by having the most expensive advertisements, or by brainwashing consumers to believe what is not true and to buy even more product. NBCnews is attempting to educate more than FOX, but potential viewers are already lost in the Fox trot.
NBC news educates by flinging "stuff" against the wall to see what sticks. Rachel announced that Ryan wanted to be called Mr. Ryan instead of Congressman Ryan. Ryan was addresssed as Congressman Ryan throughout the debate. Did the debate committee, or whatever is running the debate, refuse his request? Rachel never mentioned it after the debate. Does she feel her audience is such a group of fools they wouldn't remember it? I did. I''m one of the fools who watched her pre-debate show and post-debate show. As I watched it, I kept thinking what do they really think of their audience? They must think their viewers are either committed to MSNBC's outlook or they are sort of dumb and can be told anything. At this point, I don't believe any of the networks. There must be something in it for them if their candidate wins.
Biden won that debate. Ryan showed his young age and not ready to take a position of VP when addressing foreign affairs. Ryan was very confused on foreign affairs. It was very apparent Ryan lost touch and was confused about foreign affairs questions. Biden was very good on foreign affairs and explained it very well. I like how Biden was very strong in stating that America will withdraw from Afghanistan by 2014. I like how Biden stated that America has accomplished goals by disbanding Al-queda and killing Osama Bin Laden and it is time to withdraw. I felt that Ryan was advocating war and that is not good.
I believe the Democrats will re-take the leads in the polls due to the extreme position of the Republican Party. I believe the American people will see that the Republican Party advocates war. I believe the American people will see that the Republican Party talks a good game about reducing the deficit but has no real plan on how to do it. I believe the American people will put two and two together and feel the Republican Party are very disingenuous about reducing the deficit because the math does not add up for a tax cut for the rich and vouchers for Medicare. Biden was very strong in the debate and explain difference very well.
Lets insult the sitting vp by calling him bizarre..good one repubs im independant..changed my mind last night..surprised ryan didnt ask for a potty break..drinking all that "stuff" because he was nervous and rightly so..biden knows his facts...dont believe he and romney want to send more americans to die in the middle east????? think its time romney got some time in the "field"maybe driving a truck on a mine filled road, or defending an embassy ..what a woss...and ryan..isnt he the age where he could have gone to fight for america???? well bidens sons went...BIDEN won and tell your buddies to stop the war against women...over 400 changes in states run by republicans against womens issues??? again Obama and Biden...at least i would still live in the USA ..."were freedom rings" FOR ALL
Was a good debate, was a tie in my opinion. As for all the criticizing of Romney not serving in the military, neither did Biden or Obama.
I had no idea Biden was going to be that good. What the hell was wrong with Ryan? Why didn't he take the opportunity when the moderator gave him the chance to clear the air once and for all about the Romney tax plan? He refused to give any specifics or go into any detail!! The ENTIRE NATION is watching. Come on, man!!
The Change in Tone and Civility…
(azcentral.com, McCain, 2/17/2012) “U.S. Sen. John McCain is one Arizona Republican who is not excited about Wednesday's GOP presidential debate in Mesa.
A downbeat McCain told The Arizona Republic last week that he believes that the preponderance of debates over the past year or so -- there have been 25 since May -- and the increasingly negative tenor of the forums could result in the Republicans nominating a damaged candidate to take on President Barack Obama this year.
"They've turned from a candidate's ability to describe their position on the issues to mud-wrestling," McCain said. "Unfortunately, it has driven up the unfavorables of the candidates. So I think we've had enough debates, and every day that it goes on, the more advantage it gives to President Obama."
Even back during the Republican debates, the GOP had a problem with “NEGATIVITY”. President Obama’s first debate demonstrated to the Democrats how ill prepared they were for politics in the 21st Century. With the likes of Hannity, Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Coulter, Savage and the Fox Noise Team, Republicans have become increasingly angry and negative. Somewhere down the line the “TRUTH” also took a battering as the GOP strategy became to win at all cost, LIE if you have too.
In last nights debate Vice President Joe Biden gave the Republicans a dose of their own medicine. Joe Biden’s infamous smile was as effective as Mitt Romney’s Cheshire Cat grin in his debate with President Obama. With Ryan playing the “Professional” Congressman, he didn’t have a chance. Although America says it longs for “Civility” what we really want is “SPECTICAL” for entertainment, revenge and ratings.
No my friends “Democrats” are not above this sort of thing, and that’s good. Last night Joe Biden’s PERFORMANCE gave America hope that the Democratic Party had the BALLS to win. That we were not neutered by our own politeness and civility; that we could still defend our beliefs and fight for the American Middle Class without apology.
Lamenting days past is useless. The only way to fight FIRE is with FIRE and last night Joe Biden created that fire-line and let loose the dogs of hell. He changed the game for the Democrats, who have been afraid to fight, afraid to say Mitt Romney is a LIAR….afraid to interrupt or to take back the floor when interrupted, to be aggressive and assertive while defending their positions. But that is the world we live in now, it doesn’t’ really matter whether it is unfortunate or not…it is what it is and it has been changing for quite sometime….The Republicans were counting on a another election season where the Democrats would not catch on…they were counting on them staying neutered, polite and passive.
The first Presidential Debate seemed to have awakened the sleeping giant, one can hope. The issues are too big and too important to the American Middle Class and the poor among us to wring our hands about being POLITE….We must fight tooth and nail for what we believe, because the other side is doing the same…
The GOP stopped being “COLLEGIAL” with each other long ago, why would the Democrats think they were still going to extend that courtesy to you?
So my fellow Democrats, Progressives and Independents….it is time to stand up for ourselves and what we believe in and not hide behind the veil of “likability”, we can be civil, but assertive and show America that we do have the CAJONES to lead…we must show them our CAJONES are HUGE and made of STEEL!!! JOE BIDEN was surely PROUD TO SHOW HIS and they were COLOSSAL LOL Good job JOE!
Yes, Chris Tingle said everything was done except Hard-Coal Joe flushing the toilet when he was done, WOW